Has independent Palm deveopment died?
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Sarah - 25 Apr 2008 02:35 GMT I want to start devoping for Palm or another PDA/Smartphone, but it seems like the community is hard to find, compared to 5 years ago. Are independents still developing for Palm etc.? Can you make any money at it?
Jim
RCC - 25 Apr 2008 12:20 GMT In message <f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Sarah <sarah_sonderson@hotmail.com> writes
>I want to start devoping for Palm or another PDA/Smartphone, but it >seems like the community is hard to find, compared to 5 years ago. Are >independents still developing for Palm etc.? Can you make any money at >it? > >Jim Jim
About 5 years ago if you walked down Tottenham Court Road in London (loads of computer and phone shops) you would see palm devices in every window. Last week I went looking for headphones to fit my new Palm Centro - same fit as 680 - and NONE of the stores I tried stocked any Palm kit at all, apart from a few dusty old ones. Will have to order online.
The biggest selling Palms here seem to be the 500 and 7xx series, both Win-doze and not really Palms at all.
I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is just about dead. Developers might exist as a hobby group and one or two companies might make money (tealscript and dataviz come to mind) but I doubt there is much scope in the market. You might just strike lucky with a niche product.
 Signature Richard C
Odysseus - 19 May 2008 01:29 GMT > I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is > just about dead. It really is. The big players are going to be Google and Apple's iPhone.
Sarah - 26 May 2008 21:42 GMT > In article <kIvr06BS6bEIF...@cowling1.demon.co.uk>, > > > I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is > > just about dead. > > It really is. The big players are going to be Google and Apple's iPhone. What do you mean? I understand the iPhone is a smart PDA but how can Google be a PDA program?
Zombie Elvis - 27 May 2008 05:36 GMT >> In article <kIvr06BS6bEIF...@cowling1.demon.co.uk>, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >What do you mean? I understand the iPhone is a smart PDA but how can >Google be a PDA program? You are aware that Google has a new smartphone platform called "Android" which is coming soon and is expected to be very popular? -- Cause, really, nothing says "I'm a counter culture rebel, fighting the establishment" like an Aibo on a skateboard. - Seen on Slashdot
Roberto Castillo robertocastillo@ameritech.net http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/ http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/
Daniel James - 25 Apr 2008 13:12 GMT In article news:<f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah (who signs herself Jim) wrote: > Are independents still developing for Palm etc.? Yes, certainly, though I get the impression that fewer people are working on Palm apps than in the past.
This is partly because there are a lot of Palm apps out there already so there are fewer and fewer gaps to fill -- and the Palm platform hasn't changed so nothing much needs updating.
It's also partly because the Palm platform hasn't changed ... Palm confused the market a few years ago by telling everyone that PalmOS 5 was at the end of its life and that PalmOS 6 was the New Big Thing and then not releasing PalmOS 6 (at least, not in a form that any Palm licensees wanted to build into any products). New Palms today still run PalmOS 5-point-something, and some of the smartphones run Windows Mobile.
There is development for Windows Mobile, though, and for Symbian. There is Java development -- especially for devices that run J2ME (most phones these days ... you can even run a J2ME runtime on a Palm). There is development for linux-based devices (the OpenMoko project looks very interesting -- I hope they produce a device soon).
> Can you make any money at it? Big question!
You can make money at almost anything if you do it well enough. There is certainly big money being made in the handheld market, but I don't know how much of that is being made by "independents". I suspect that the market is now so saturated with apps that no one of them makes very much, and that that will remain the case until someone thinks of a new "must have" application that hasn't been done yet.
Cheers, Daniel.
Sarah - 07 May 2008 05:23 GMT > In article > <news:f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Cheers, > Daniel. Thanks Daniel. Are the java, windows mobile, symbian markets viable? I don't seem to be aware of people downloading programs to run on their phone, as in the big days of the Palm???
Thanks.....
Daniel James - 07 May 2008 13:29 GMT In article news:<7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah wrote: > Are the java, windows mobile, symbian markets viable? It depends on what you mean by 'viable'.
The Java platform is the most common, but is rather limited. Windows Mobile is becoming more common but is limited to quite high-end phones (and a few non-phone PDAs), Symbian runs exclusively on high-end smartphones but is very popular (especially outside the US).
The big problem with J2ME is that it provides a somewhat restricted Java API and doesn't mandate the provision of interfaces that give access to phone/PDA features.
The restrictions include lack of floating-point arithmetic and support for only a very limited set of net APIs and no crypto (which is insane, as most of the devices that support J2ME are internet-capable phones, and mobile devices need security more than any other). My impression is that the people who drew up the J2ME spec expected it to be used to write games, and not much else.
There is an added problem that some devices make only a limited amount of memory available to the Java runtime, so there is a limit to the size of application that can be run. This is particularly crippling if you have to include Java code in your application to do something that would be provided by the runtime in J2SE.
J2ME would be much more useful if it had mandated standard APIs to allow a Java MIDlet to access the device's address/phone book, to use ir/Bluetooth communications (if available), to use the device's camera (if any), etc.. Many manufacturers support proprietary modules that provide some of these functions, but they aren't standard across platforms. This severely limits the scope for writing general applications for J2ME ... at best you will have to write different versions for different manufacturers' devices.
The J2ME applications that I am aware of are mostly either games or proprietary applications used within a particular business. There are a few general utilities, but nothing like the number that sprang up for the Palm in its heyday. That said: there are an awful lot of cheap cellphones out there that can run J2ME MIDlets, the market is huge and potentially rewarding if you can come up with a sufficiently compelling product.
Symbian development is mostly done in C++, but using a somewhat symbian-specific dialect. You do get full access the hardware, and (usually, at least) good supporting libraries that give some access to the device's software environment. The APIs are not all standardized, though, and Symbian have allowed their licensees to provide their own implementation of the top-level GUI, so there isn't even a single standardized GUI API across devices from different vendors (which allows vendors to maintain their own look and feel but is a PITA for developers as you just can't ship a single shrinkwrapped application for all vendors' Symbian-based phones).
If anything, Windows mobile errs in the opposite direction ... the APIs are specified by Microsoft so there is a high degree of standardization across products from different vendors, but there is less scope for a vendor to do anything interestingly different (at least without breaking the standard). WM development uses familiar Visual Studio tools, but the target APIs are subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) different in the mobile devices -- this means that developing a mobile version of an existing desktop application is often not as easy as one would like (sometimes scarcely easier than rewriting it for e.g. Symbian). The tools are of good quality, though, and if you have Visual Studio Professional for desktop development you already have the tools for mobile development thrown in for free (that's an indication of how much Microsoft wants to encourage developers to develop for their mobile platform).
As always: if you produce a sufficiently useful/entertaining application there will be people who will want to use it, and who will be prepared to pay for the privilege. Whether or not you consider development for the platform 'viable' depends on how many people will pay to use it on that platform and how much they will pay -- and that depends on how good your killer app is.
Cheers, Daniel.
Sarah - 26 May 2008 21:50 GMT > In article > <news:7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > Cheers, > Daniel. Daniel, thank you for the extremely thoughtful and informative answer. It seems like API compatibility remains a limiting problem, just as it has in desktop development forever. Do you know where to find out about sales numbers of "download" or "shareware" software for java, symbian, MW?
In the days of Palm you could just develop for Palm OS and have enough sales potential to justify your effort (although later OS versions starting causing similar API problems).
If you had an idea for an app for mobile/PDA, which OS would you go with? Or should I ask, how would you decide which OS to go with?
Thanks so much.
Sarah
Zombie Elvis - 27 May 2008 05:34 GMT >Daniel, thank you for the extremely thoughtful and informative answer. >It seems like API compatibility remains a limiting problem, just as it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Thanks so much. If you're going purely by sales, Symbian wins out. But the previous poster did a pretty good job of explaining its limitations. I'm guessing that most Symbian users don't download anything other than one or two games during the time they user their phone.
For all of Palm's recent miss-steps, the Palm Centro has already sold about a million units. If only one tenth of those users (many of them relatively new to the smartphone world) purchase third party applications, that's not an insignificant market. I'd say put out one or two simple freeware PalmOS applications to see if there is any interest in the platform. Post links to them in the forums at popular PalmOS websites like http://palminfocenter.com, http://1src.com, http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/, and http://treocentral.com then wait to see how much feedback you get from the users there to see if the platform is worth any more effort. -- Cause, really, nothing says "I'm a counter culture rebel, fighting the establishment" like an Aibo on a skateboard. - Seen on Slashdot
Roberto Castillo robertocastillo@ameritech.net http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/ http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/
Daniel James - 27 May 2008 10:00 GMT In article news:<30c395f0-5940-47ae-9900-14544c662efb@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah wrote: > Do you know where to find out about sales numbers of "download" or > "shareware" software for java, symbian, MW? Many of the freeware/shareware download sites give download numbers for the various applications they can supply. That's probably where I'd start looking.
I have done some work for a company that was active in this area, and have seen the figures they compiled for their own use ... but unfortunately the figures are confidential and also not very recent, and I have no idea how they collected the data.
> If you had an idea for an app for mobile/PDA, which OS would you go > with? Or should I ask, how would you decide which OS to go with? Well ... if you are writing a new app (rather than porting an existing app from a different platform) the first thing to do would be to see which platforms support what your app needs. For typical PDA apps you'll probably find that any platform will do, but if you need tons of resources some platforms may be ruled out or may require extra work (the newer Palm devices with VFS have limits on RAM image sizes, for example).
You have to pick development tools with which you are happy. If you like the gcc cross-compilers you can target just about anything, but if you have a passion for Visual Studio you'll find yourself drawn to Windows Mobile.
You also have to assess the size of the market. At the moment the most numerous smartphone designs use Symbian or Windows Mobile (even some Palm models use WM) with PalmOS distinctly in third place ... but developments like OpenMoko and Google's Android will mean that there are some very nice devices that run linux -- whether they will gain mass-market popularity or remain niche "geek-toys" I can't predict.
There's also Blackberry. There are a lot of Blackberries in the world, but I'm not aware of much of a third-party software market -- it's just not something I know anything about. I can't help you with that, I'm afraid, you need to do some more research.
 Signature Cheers, Daniel.
Sarah - 02 Jun 2008 06:24 GMT > In article > <news:30c395f0-5940-47ae-9900-14544c662efb@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Cheers, > Daniel. Thank you all so much. It's obvious there are still some thoughtful people paying attention to palm development. I think I will start developing my app, and try to be as ready for cross-platform as possible, and keep an eye on android and openmoko. I've finally reached a point in life where I can spend a little time on this and am encouraged to at least start and keep researching.
Thanks again.
Sarah
ebresie - 02 Jul 2008 18:45 GMT > In article news:7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Java API and doesn't mandate the provision of interfaces that give > access to phone/PDA features.
> The restrictions include lack of floating-point arithmetic and support > for only a very limited set of net APIs and no crypto (which is insane, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > potentially rewarding if you can come up with a sufficiently compelling > product.
> Cheers, > Daniel. Well, Sun recently opened up JavaME (now known as phoneME), which can allow for new ports of more high end versions.
If anyone is interested in helping port phoneME CDC to Palm, go to
http://forums.java.net/jive/message.jspa?messageID=283977
Eric
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