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Has independent Palm deveopment died?

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Sarah - 25 Apr 2008 02:35 GMT
I want to start devoping for Palm or another PDA/Smartphone, but it
seems like the community is hard to find, compared to 5 years ago. Are
independents still developing for Palm etc.? Can you make any money at
it?

Jim
RCC - 25 Apr 2008 12:20 GMT
In message
<f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Sarah <sarah_sonderson@hotmail.com> writes
>I want to start devoping for Palm or another PDA/Smartphone, but it
>seems like the community is hard to find, compared to 5 years ago. Are
>independents still developing for Palm etc.? Can you make any money at
>it?
>
>Jim

Jim

About 5 years ago if you walked down Tottenham Court Road in London
(loads of computer and phone shops) you would see palm devices in every
window.  Last week I went looking for headphones to fit my new Palm
Centro - same fit as 680 - and NONE of the stores I tried stocked any
Palm kit at all, apart from a few dusty old ones.  Will have to order
online.

The biggest selling Palms here seem to be the 500 and 7xx series, both
Win-doze and not really Palms at all.

I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is
just about dead.  Developers might exist as a hobby group and one or two
companies might make money (tealscript and dataviz come to mind) but I
doubt there is much scope in the market.  You might just strike lucky
with a niche product.

Signature

Richard C

Odysseus - 19 May 2008 01:29 GMT
> I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is
> just about dead.

It really is. The big players are going to be Google and Apple's iPhone.
Sarah - 26 May 2008 21:42 GMT
> In article <kIvr06BS6bEIF...@cowling1.demon.co.uk>,
>
> > I like the Palm OS (hence the Centro) but I fear that commercially it is
> > just about dead.
>
> It really is. The big players are going to be Google and Apple's iPhone.

What do you mean? I understand the iPhone is a smart PDA but how can
Google be a PDA program?
Zombie Elvis - 27 May 2008 05:36 GMT
>> In article <kIvr06BS6bEIF...@cowling1.demon.co.uk>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>What do you mean? I understand the iPhone is a smart PDA but how can
>Google be a PDA program?

You are aware that Google has a new smartphone platform called
"Android" which is coming soon and is expected to be very popular?
--
Cause, really, nothing says "I'm a counter culture
rebel, fighting the establishment" like an Aibo on
a skateboard.
     - Seen on Slashdot

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/
Daniel James - 25 Apr 2008 13:12 GMT
In article
news:<f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah (who signs herself Jim) wrote:
> Are independents still developing for Palm etc.?

Yes, certainly, though I get the impression that fewer people are
working on Palm apps than in the past.

This is partly because there are a lot of Palm apps out there already
so there are fewer and fewer gaps to fill -- and the Palm platform
hasn't changed so nothing much needs updating.

It's also partly because the Palm platform hasn't changed ... Palm
confused the market a few years ago by telling everyone that PalmOS 5
was at the end of its life and that PalmOS 6 was the New Big Thing and
then not releasing PalmOS 6 (at least, not in a form that any Palm
licensees wanted to build into any products). New Palms today still run
PalmOS 5-point-something, and some of the smartphones run Windows
Mobile.

There is development for Windows Mobile, though, and for Symbian. There
is Java development -- especially for devices that run J2ME (most
phones these days ... you can even run a J2ME runtime on a Palm). There
is development for linux-based devices (the OpenMoko project looks very
interesting -- I hope they produce a device soon).

> Can you make any money at it?

Big question!

You can make money at almost anything if you do it well enough. There
is certainly big money being made in the handheld market, but I don't
know how much of that is being made by "independents". I suspect that
the market is now so saturated with apps that no one of them makes very
much, and that that will remain the case until someone thinks of a new
"must have" application that hasn't been done yet.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Sarah - 07 May 2008 05:23 GMT
> In article
> <news:f3a5383a-6589-48f9-8766-3f5ae8c5a76e@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Cheers,
>  Daniel.

Thanks Daniel.  Are the java, windows mobile, symbian markets viable?
I don't seem to be aware of people downloading programs to run on
their phone, as in the big days of the Palm???

Thanks.....
Daniel James - 07 May 2008 13:29 GMT
In article
news:<7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah wrote:
> Are the java, windows mobile, symbian markets viable?

It depends on what you mean by 'viable'.

The Java platform is the most common, but is rather limited. Windows
Mobile is becoming more common but is limited to quite high-end phones
(and a few non-phone PDAs), Symbian runs exclusively on high-end
smartphones but is very popular (especially outside the US).

The big problem with J2ME is that it provides a somewhat restricted
Java API and doesn't mandate the provision of interfaces that give
access to phone/PDA features.

The restrictions include lack of floating-point arithmetic and support
for only a very limited set of net APIs and no crypto (which is insane,
as most of the devices that support J2ME are internet-capable phones,
and mobile devices need security more than any other). My impression is
that the people who drew up the J2ME spec expected it to be used to
write games, and not much else.

There is an added problem that some devices make only a limited amount
of memory available to the Java runtime, so there is a limit to the
size of application that can be run. This is particularly crippling if
you have to include Java code in your application to do something that
would be provided by the runtime in J2SE.

J2ME would be much more useful if it had mandated standard APIs to
allow a Java MIDlet to access the device's address/phone book, to use  
ir/Bluetooth communications (if available), to use the device's camera
(if any), etc.. Many manufacturers support proprietary modules that
provide some of these functions, but they aren't standard across
platforms. This severely limits the scope for writing general
applications for J2ME ... at best you will have to write different
versions for different manufacturers' devices.

The J2ME applications that I am aware of are mostly either games or
proprietary applications used within a particular business. There are a
few general utilities, but nothing like the number that sprang up for
the Palm in its heyday. That said: there are an awful lot of cheap
cellphones out there that can run J2ME MIDlets, the market is huge and
potentially rewarding if you can come up with a sufficiently compelling
product.

Symbian development is mostly done in C++, but using a somewhat
symbian-specific dialect. You do get full access the hardware, and
(usually, at least) good supporting libraries that give some access to
the device's software environment. The APIs are not all standardized,
though, and Symbian have allowed their licensees to provide their own
implementation of the top-level GUI, so there isn't even a single
standardized GUI API across devices from different vendors (which
allows vendors to maintain their own look and feel but is a PITA for
developers as you just can't ship a single shrinkwrapped application
for all vendors' Symbian-based phones).

If anything, Windows mobile errs in the opposite direction ... the APIs
are specified by Microsoft so there is a high degree of standardization
across products from different vendors, but there is less scope for a
vendor to do anything interestingly different (at least without
breaking the standard). WM development uses familiar Visual Studio
tools, but the target APIs are subtly (and sometimes not so subtly)
different in the mobile devices -- this means that developing a mobile
version of an existing desktop application is often not as easy as one
would like (sometimes scarcely easier than rewriting it for e.g.
Symbian). The tools are of good quality, though, and if you have Visual
Studio Professional for desktop development you already have the tools
for mobile development thrown in for free (that's an indication of how
much Microsoft wants to encourage developers to develop for their
mobile platform).

As always: if you produce a sufficiently useful/entertaining
application there will be people who will want to use it, and who will
be prepared to pay for the privilege. Whether or not you consider
development for the platform 'viable' depends on how many people will
pay to use it on that platform and how much they will pay -- and that
depends on how good your killer app is.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Sarah - 26 May 2008 21:50 GMT
> In article
> <news:7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> Cheers,
>  Daniel.

Daniel, thank you for the extremely thoughtful and informative answer.
It seems like API compatibility remains a limiting problem, just as it
has in desktop development forever. Do you know where to find out
about sales numbers of "download" or "shareware" software for java,
symbian, MW?

In the days of Palm you could just develop for Palm OS and have enough
sales potential to justify your effort (although later OS versions
starting causing similar API problems).

If you had an idea for an app for mobile/PDA, which OS would you go
with? Or should I ask, how would you decide which OS to go with?

Thanks so much.

Sarah
Zombie Elvis - 27 May 2008 05:34 GMT
>Daniel, thank you for the extremely thoughtful and informative answer.
>It seems like API compatibility remains a limiting problem, just as it
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Thanks so much.

If you're going purely by sales, Symbian wins out. But the previous
poster did a pretty good job of explaining its limitations. I'm
guessing that most Symbian users don't download anything other than
one or two games during the time they user their phone.

For all of Palm's recent miss-steps, the Palm Centro has already sold
about a million units. If only one tenth of those users (many of them
relatively new to the smartphone world) purchase third party
applications, that's not an insignificant market. I'd say put out one
or two simple freeware PalmOS applications to see if there is any
interest in the platform. Post links to them in the forums at popular
PalmOS websites like http://palminfocenter.com, http://1src.com,
http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/,  and
http://treocentral.com then wait to see how much feedback you get from
the users there to see if the platform is worth any more effort.
--
Cause, really, nothing says "I'm a counter culture
rebel, fighting the establishment" like an Aibo on
a skateboard.
     - Seen on Slashdot

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/
Daniel James - 27 May 2008 10:00 GMT
In article
news:<30c395f0-5940-47ae-9900-14544c662efb@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
>, Sarah wrote:
> Do you know where to find out about sales numbers of "download" or
> "shareware" software for java, symbian, MW?

Many of the freeware/shareware download sites give download numbers for
the various applications they can supply. That's probably where I'd
start looking.

I have done some work for a company that was active in this area, and
have seen the figures they compiled for their own use ... but
unfortunately the figures are confidential and also not very recent,
and I have no idea how they collected the data.

> If you had an idea for an app for mobile/PDA, which OS would you go
> with? Or should I ask, how would you decide which OS to go with?

Well ... if you are writing a new app (rather than porting an existing
app from a different platform) the first thing to do would be to see
which platforms support what your app needs. For typical PDA apps
you'll probably find that any platform will do, but if you need tons of
resources some platforms may be ruled out or may require extra work
(the newer Palm devices with VFS have limits on RAM image sizes, for
example).

You have to pick development tools with which you are happy. If you
like the gcc cross-compilers you can target just about anything, but if
you have a passion for Visual Studio you'll find yourself drawn to
Windows Mobile.

You also have to assess the size of the market. At the moment the most
numerous smartphone designs use Symbian or Windows Mobile (even some
Palm models use WM) with PalmOS distinctly in third place ... but
developments like OpenMoko and Google's Android will mean that there
are some very nice devices that run linux -- whether they will gain
mass-market popularity or remain niche "geek-toys" I can't predict.

There's also Blackberry. There are a lot of Blackberries in the world,
but I'm not aware of much of a third-party software market -- it's just
not something I know anything about. I can't help you with that, I'm
afraid, you need to do some more research.
Signature

Cheers,
Daniel.

Sarah - 02 Jun 2008 06:24 GMT
> In article
> <news:30c395f0-5940-47ae-9900-14544c662efb@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Cheers,
>  Daniel.

Thank you all so much. It's obvious there are still some thoughtful
people paying attention to palm development. I think I will start
developing my app, and try to be as ready for cross-platform as
possible, and keep an eye on android and openmoko. I've finally
reached a point in life where I can spend a little time on this and am
encouraged to at least start and keep researching.

Thanks again.

Sarah
ebresie - 02 Jul 2008 18:45 GMT
> In article news:7f4151ce-8c79-435b-bf29-6887ee189546@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Java API and doesn't mandate the provision of interfaces that give
> access to phone/PDA features.

> The restrictions include lack of floating-point arithmetic and support
> for only a very limited set of net APIs and no crypto (which is insane,
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> potentially rewarding if you can come up with a sufficiently compelling
> product.

> Cheers,
>  Daniel.

Well, Sun recently opened up JavaME (now known as phoneME), which can
allow for new ports of more high end versions.

If anyone is interested in helping port phoneME CDC to Palm, go to

http://forums.java.net/jive/message.jspa?messageID=283977

Eric
 
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